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Ran Finishing Test
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=5382		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  csullivan [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:38 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm a KTM9 proponent and have used it quite successfully in the past. My
only complaint has been with its water-white appearance. When I have
open pored woods I use epoxy to fill the grain and in fact cover the whole
instrument with the epoxy which adds an amber tone. On instruments
that require no filling, like maple, I tone the KTM9 with colorant and spray
several coats to get a nice even tone. But I like the warmth of amber
shellac as a base and bought some Bull's Eye amber shellac. I sprayed an
even coat on scraps of spruce and cherry. The next night I sprayed 2
coats of KTM9 over it. It looks beautiful and is just what I wanted, but I
had previously read on the OLF a warning not to use the Bull's Eye shellac
-- just use the Bull's Eye sanding sealer. Nobody ever said why. My
samples look good, the KTM9 flowed out nicely and seems to be adhered
well. What am I missing? I'm about to spray an instrument and don't want
to wake up a month from now with the finish suddenly lying in a heap on
the floor.
Craig
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:48 am ]
Post subject: 
I did. The answer is wax. The Bull's eye shellac is not wax free. That is the reason it is not recomended. The Zinnzer's Bull's Eye Sanding Sealer is 100% wax free, as stated on the can it is a 50/50 blend of amber and blonde in a 3# cutMichaelP38777.6590393518
Author:  csullivan [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Michael. I thought it might be something like that, but I figured if
it was a wax issue it wouldn't have flowed out as well as it did. I can't
seem to find anyone locally that carries the sealer any more. I guess I'll
have to mail order it and postpone my finish.
Craig
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:12 am ]
Post subject: 
Kelly More here does and I know they can order it if not in current stock
Author:  Bobc [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:17 am ]
Post subject: 
Craig I have seen it at Home Depot. I would suggest you try the Target Coatings Waterborne shellac. I use it under KTM-9 without a problem.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Here is a thought take the shellac you have cut to a 1 or 1.5 cut, let it set for 48-72 hours in a warm (68deg+) location in a clear glass container. The wax should settle and with care not to get any wax, pore off the shellac Robbie O'brian showes this in his finishing video. I have never don it but it makes senceMichaelP38777.6798726852
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:30 am ]
Post subject: 
Home Dpot here tells me the only Zinnzers Shellac they can get is the Bull's Eye shellac finish and Sealer. The stuff in the yellow can. That is not the same as the Sanding Sealer. I asked why they could order one and not the other , of course with my wife in marketing for Wal-Mart for some 25 years now I knew the answer. They order through there own wharehouse and the buyers don't buy the Sanding Sealer. Same reason they will not order me in some high grade Baltic Birch. I have gotten to where I don't buy any ply from them every piece I have gotten in the past two years has been filled with voids. even their best cabinet grade is the pits here in Odessa. Ihave to go to a lumber yard in Midland and order it in. They all think me crasy for spending that kind of money in ply

oops sorry I found a sore spot in knogen MichaelP38777.6886921296
Author:  Bobc [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Michael I have the sanding sealer but maybe I didn't buy it at Home Depot. I agree on their plywood.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:38 am ]
Post subject: 
Not to hijack a thread but not even the top lumbers in our area will carry the good stuff anymore. I have to order it and they hate one or two sheet orders.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:51 am ]
Post subject: 
I saw beautiful plywood at Rockler's, not sure if you have stores in your area.
It's becoming harder and harder to find good plywood, I mostly see junk. FYI
Rockler's also carries the Zinsser 100% wax free shellac, as well as Behlen's
Rockhard varnish.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Nope not Rockler any where near here
Author:  crowduck [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:11 am ]
Post subject: 
I remember reading once about letting the wax settle to the bottom, then carefully transfer the container to a freezer to sit for awhile. Freezer causes the wax to harden/thicken up, and allow for easier decanting of the pure shellac off the top. Don't leave much, if any, air space in the container for condensation. I tried this, and it works, but you're left with about 1/4 of unusable very thick wax/shellac. But in a pinch.

CrowDuck
Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:46 am ]
Post subject: 
You can get it at Woodcraft. I finished my dobro with it under KTM-9. I have had adhesion issues in the past with KTM-9 over shellac, but this combination worked very well.    I sprayed it on. Worked well. No adhesion problems at all, and it popped the grain nicely for the KTM-9. You just have to make sure you sand the sealer prior to spraying the finish for a good mechanical bond.
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Try a paint store like glidden or some other paint store benjamin moore is where I got my Zinnzer's Bull's Eye Sanding Sealer. Just make sure you check the date on the bottom. Great stuff, thin it a bit and it sprays realy nice. I'm sure you could spray it at the 3# cut though.
Author:  CarltonM [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:08 am ]
Post subject: 
I haven't read much about Menard's on the Forum, so I don't know if they have widespread outlets, but I've seen the Zinsser sealer shellac at my local store. BTW, I thought the sanding sealer was a 2lb cut.(?)
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:15 am ]
Post subject: 
Your right Carlton, it is a 2# cut, my mistake.

This is the stuff just so you all know.



Read up on it at Frets.com. Frank is sooooooo helpful. Thanks Frank.
Author:  Miketobey [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:50 am ]
Post subject: 
I got mine right off the shelf at Menard's.And fresh date code too. I've been using it to do some FP practice like Robbie O'B suggested. It is very clean stuff,nothing settled in the bottom of the can and since I like aged look,it has a nice mellow tone. Also, some Ace Tru-Values carry it too.
Author:  A Peebels [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have been using the Bulls Eye amber shellac for some time, and have never had any problems. I've used it under nitro, and Stew Mac waterbone lacquer, and it has worked just fine.
I understand that wax is not a good thing, but is it not as bad as some think, or have I just been lucky?

Al
Author:  mikev [ Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
ok, I'm confused. The whole finish thing is starting to rattle me. Craig, you said you liked the KTM9 over epoxy, but you don't use it that way over Maple becuase it doesn't need pore filling. Why not use the epoxy anyway ? Is the spray shellac easier? Cheaper? Faster? I used KTM9 over epoxy on a maple dulcimer, 'cuase I didn't know any better. But I only did the epoxy for the look. Since I am building an archtop as we speak I am reading every "finish" post and now have less of a plan then before. Please keep posting,,, I'll keep reading...I need a plan
Mike
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Creig, you have a PM.
MIke
Author:  csullivan [ Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:39 am ]
Post subject: 
Thank you one and all. I think the reason my sample worked is because I
didn't stir the can of shellac before I used it, so the wax had probably
settled to the bottom. I probably just got lucky. I will wait until I have a
can of Seal Coat (thanks Rod for the pic) before I go any further.

Mike V, yours is a good question and my answer is -- it's subtle. While I
use the KTM9 over epoxy as a filler, there is a subtle color difference
between the amber of the epoxy and the amber of shellac. It's hard to
describe, but to my eyes, the shellac has a very smooth, soft and natural
look. The epoxy sometimes adds just a very slight coarse look that leans
slightly to the gray side of amber. Then again, it's probably just me after
years of breathing in who-knows-what in the shop and years of staring at
a computer monitor for hours on end.

Mike M, thank you.
Craig
Author:  Barry Dudley [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:17 am ]
Post subject: 
The most simple way to fix the shellac problem is mix your own. If you do that you can also select the color you want...Ultrablonde, orange, garnet etc.
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